| Archive for 3945society.myfreeforum.org The 39-45 Living History Society a UK based society that re-enact battles and recreate the 'Living History' of WW2 with both Allied and Axis units. |
| admin |
Membership - blank firers.....Moral dilema?One thing that has occured to me regards future membership and the VCR act.As we all know a clause in the VCR allows a defense for owning a blank firing weapon. That defense is the owner must be a member of a "re-enacting" society. Hence the fact that ID cards are being produced (If you want one and haven't done so, send a photo). Now, I'm convinced anyone who is already a member and those who will be members in the near future have genuine reasons but I believe we should be aware of unknown people who may apply ONLY to safeguard the possesion of their blankers. Maybe either an existing member(s) should propose an applicant or a period of probation should be undertaken or even both. Having said, I hope it mearly will be enough for us to be aware of any potentional problem. The last thing we need is to make the society overly bureaucratic. Thoughts? |
||
| mick nick |
The crucial element is Clause 35. Clause 34 creates various offences related to the sale, transfer, manufacture and/or import “realistic imitation firearms”. However, Clause 35 creates various defences to Clause 34 offences. Within this there are crucial safeguards for re-enactors that shall permit them to still obtain both blank firing and deactivated items for the purpose of re-enactment
See above I thought the bill only band the sale, making, importation of blank firing replicas and realistic replicas. Not the ownership, so if you owned them before the date of the commencement of the bill its ok. If you are a members of a re-enactment group it provideds a good reason to buy, sale, make, import or have on Public display blank firing replicas and realistic replicas. However I do agree with you there could be a problem with people joining just to add to there collection or letting them sell their blank firing guns, and thier could be those that use the group as an umbrella were they had been “independent re-enactors” before just to continue to do what they had done before. |
||
| Kris |
You can get a class 1 fire arms licence at the age of 16. | ||
| jonboy |
16 you say.... 
you can get one then 
|
||
| Kris |
Yes all you need is 4 signatures.
1. Yours. 2. Parent/Guardian 3.People that have knowen you for 2 years or more. 4. People that have knowen you for 2 years or more. |
||
| Ropes |
its not that easy mate. Im applying for my FAC now. | ||
| Jacko |
The VCR bill and its impact is well explianed here:
http://www.basc.org.uk/media/basc_vcr_guide_october_2007.pdf In relation to RIFs (Replica Imitation firearms) i.e blank firers/airsoft guns etc Read page 7 onwards. I agree with Mick Micks interpretaion and the above document confirms it. SINCE the change in law/introduction of the VCR it does aim to prevent the purchase of RIFs, however, if you owned them before the change you can still own them -as the VCR does not criminalise the PRIOR ownership of them, just the obtaining them now if you not come under the exemptions. THis includes obtaining them if you already had RIFs before VCR. So in response to the opening concerns of thread, people will not seek to join to protect their ownership as currently they havent got to. Also it could be very expensive option seeing as they would have to obtian the uniform/kit etc too! Also I think with respect to RIFs the VCR is more concerned with their use e.g a recognised re-enactor would have a good reason to have a RIF in the back of his/her car along with the rest of their kit and to have it with them in a public place. Whereas a the opposite of this is the guy who simply buys a RIF pistol and wants to carry it round town tucked in his belt and look threatening. However, saying that, the allowed exemptions put a 'self policing' expectation to both prior owners of RIFs that they dont sell them on to people who arent exempt. And more importantly upon groups who have the appropriate re-enactor insurance who can issue membership cards etc as of course people could join up get given a membership card that allows them ownership and then disappear forever. I know of groups that have an expectation that you attend at least 3 skirmishes/events over three months. To entitle ownership of a membership card. The membership details are also held on a national database too I understand. So yes a i agree if a new member of the group wishes to take thes step of owning a RIF there should be a period of probabation that is appropriate to the group before full membership via membership card and having to pay full subscriptions is allowed (giving the member full protection under the insurance etc)....howver, I thought all new members are on a sort of probabation anyway. Hope this helps |
||
| admin |
If anyone needs advice please ask. We have a great deal of knowledge here and are very happy to give it out to ensure both you and the group are covered legally.
It is in all our interests to be absolutely on the ball. There can be NO grey areas! Here is a little something I wrote earlier..... The stipulations vary from Police authority to authority. You are best off talking to your own local firearms department. Don't be put off, they are for the most part very helpful and knowledgeable. Tell them you are a WW2 reenactor and what you want to to. They will have had other people through the system doing the same thing and will have a procedure in place. Remember, each chief constable of a given area has his own ideas. Sure, the HO lays down the guidelines but it is the individual firearms departments of a given authority that impliment them. Having said that there are obviously some commonality. Let's take a bolt action rifle. K98 Mauser/No.4Mk1 Enfield etc as an example (the police make no distinction, a full bore bolt action rifle is a full bore bolt action rifle, end of.) Do you want it for blanks only or to target shoot as well? If you want to target shoot you will have to join a club and jumps through those hoops as well but that's another thing! You must have sufficent security for the gun(s). I.E. a BS standard cabinet. BS 7558(1992) seems to be acepted by most firearms departments. This cab must be secured the the fabric of the building by expanding bolts, not rawplugs. Stud walls and the like are not aceptable. The cabinet must be out of sight of casual callers, not in your living room etc but I'd hide it away in the loft if you can. Put in place as much security as is reasonable, a lock on the door to the room or loft etc. Concider concealing the cab in a wardrobe or similar. People living in a shared house may have difficulty meeting these requirements, ask first. There is no such thing as a blank firing rilfe, no really! It IS a REAL rifle that you fire blanks through! It is a Section 1 firearm just the same as an olympic target rifle or a police 'precision rifle' (read sniper) and should be kept with all the respect of such. These as not a prop like a deact, these are real guns and the brual truth is in the wrong hand these will kill. It is up to the police to ensure you are the right person to have the responsibility to responsiby own a potentially lethal weapon. Ok, so a pencil is also a potentially lethal weapon but you don't need a FAC for that.... Moving on. People with certain criminal records and/or certain mental heath issues may not be elligible for a FAC. You will have to declare these on your application and please do so, do not leave anything out. They will check, the application is also an honestly check on yourself as much as anything. You cannot bullsh*t them, don't try. Once you make an application for a FAC you will have a visit from a rep from the FA dept. He/she will ascertain if you are suitable to be given the trust of a FAC and if you have got sufficient security in place. You will have to have this in place BEFORE the visit. You blank ammo will not be subject to the controls of live ammo but sould be kept in a safe place out of reach of people who are not suppose to have it. Children, your missus (unless she reenacts), your mate from the pub etc. This may at first all seems quite daunting but if you are a suitable person (remember, you must answer that question yourself in the first instance) then it's actually quite straight forward and logical if a trifle long winded. I can tell you from personal experience that once you have ticked all the boxes, jumped through all the hoops and you have got your own personal prize on the battlefield it will all be worth it!! These notes are given here as advice and are not rules. As far as I know I've answered correctly to the best of my knowledge and experience. If anyone else would like to add please do so. Some advice can be found on the link below, remember it varies from authority to authority. http://www.thamesvalley.police.uk/news_ ... earms4.htm |
||
| Ropes |
Ill be sending my Application form away in the next few days. It was a bit annoying all the different photos signatures refferees and what not but I suppose they make it irratating to stop people who dont have a genuine reason from applying. I know it will be well worth it when I have my finished rifle (scope, sniper saftery etc) in my possesion though. I noticed that you put there is no sutch thing as a blank fire rifle. But Steve vickers is going to convert mine to 7.62 Blankfire only. The only reason I have to put it on a FAC is because it was once a live fire weapon. | ||
| admin |
No, there is no such thing as a blank firing rifle in the eyes of the law. The hoops you have to jump through are there for good reason, as you have obviously thought.
Ok, let's have some clarification... What exactly is the proposed rifle and who are you buying it off? (K98? 7.92x57? 7.62x51?..??) What you will have if you get it 'Vickerfied' is, in my personal opinion, what was once a original piece of history that is a screwed up rifle that is lower in value than it was and can ONLY be sold to an other reenactor and not a shooter. You say the only reason you have to get an FAC is because it was once a live firer? Well as for as the police are concerned a FAC rifle is a FAC rifle and it does matter what you do to it will remain so untill dextroyed or deact. You do not need to get Steve to f*ck it up, sorry convert it to blank only for FAC reasons. Both my rifles fire both blanks and live rounds quite happily, no they really do! Honest mate you are just spending money for no good reason. If, on the other hand, you are getting a 7.92x57 K98 sleaved fire to 7.62x51 blanks only because the brass is cheaper then that is up to you. If Steve is going to re-barrel it to a 7.62x51 live firer then that would be worth it as it then has value to all. |
||
| Ropes |
The reason Im getting it converted to Blank fire is becasue I dont intend to shoot it live. if I want to keep a life fire weapon I need to have grounds to keep one. My FAC form asks for the Address of the range or shooting club i am using the weapon at. But I dont inttend on paying an anual fee for a club I never shoot at. Just as Im sure A shooting club wouldnt appreciate a member who doesnt go there. The weapon will be a K98 from steve. Im not entirely sure what he will do to the weapon. All I know is that it will be 7.62X51 blankfire only. | ||
| jonboy |
Ropes I do know how hard it is and i pm'd kris about this |
||
| Ropes |
Not sure what you mean mate? | ||
| Uncle Fester |
p.s. thanks matt for all your help and advice ! 
|
||
| les hearn |
ropes do not convert it
i did not intend to shoot mine the police still grant the licence for reenacting with live fire k98s trust me i know you really do not need to convert it as reenacting is a good enough reason to hold a class one licence if ya want to contact me or matt please do for a chat i hold a section one license and only fire blanks it is a clause they write in the license. they actually write in that you can only use blanks in the rifle .. at some stage in the furutr eyou can apply to live shoot which is what i will be doing soon i have had my license for over four years now on a section one and never fired a live round to date dont do it fella |
||
| Ropes |
Ill have a word with the oldman when hes back from Hols. (hes the one sorting it out with steve). I will have to Start Tippexing my FAC form now lol. Ill call steve tomorow and tell him not too Convert the k98 then. Whats the price on 7.92 ammo compared to 7.62? | ||
| Uncle Fester |
It works out at 42 quid for 100 form kranks .It's more expensive but lots more bang to it 
|
||
| jonboy |
7.92 £42 pre 100 | ||
| andyf |
You could get Steve to change it to 7.62 which would be cheaper to buy the rounds. Would i be right in saying that you can have a k98 on reenacting grounds, but not able to keep live rounds at home, but if you went to a gun club you could live fire it and leave unused rounds at the club? | ||
| jonboy |
No on your ticket it will say for reenacting if you live fire it you are breaking the terms of your licence | ||
| admin |
Ropes mate, at the end of the day it is up to you.
We can only give you the best advice from people who do genuinely know what we are on about. You are part of the family now and we have yours, ours and reenacting's best interest at heart. That is what being in a good group is all about not some 'Join us 'coz we're loud and shout a lot' that are around. There is loads of hearsay about FAC and live firers, blanks and shooting clubs. Les is spot on, you do not have to be in a 'shooting club' to have an uncut live K98. Don't worry about the form, you can download one. I've been around firearms since I was 13, I served in the British army, I'm a member of 2 shooting clubs, I'm a member the Lee Enfield Rifle Association etc, etc. Please ask any questions, or your Dad, no worries mate, have a chat. At the end of the day look at all the options and make your own informed decision. Cheers for taking the trouble and resposibility to actually get a FAC in the first place! |
||
| Ropes |
To be honest Im not even sure why 7.62 chop was suggested. Cheaper on blank perhaps? My oldman works for a section 5 company so he will hopefully be able to get me a cheap k98 as it is . I deff hear what your saying though . Theres no point messing around with the weapon for no reason. | ||
| Ropes |
Spoke to steve Just now. He Agreed keeping it 7.92 was the best option and said the only reason to change it was because 7.62 was cheaper on blank. Have changed my FAC application round a bit and will be getting 2 reffs to sign it tonight. Just gotta send it all off in the morning then. | ||
| les hearn |
nive one fella | ||
| ade85 |
most 7.62 is rubbish anyway.there are 2 type that are common,the L13 A1,Radway Green,NATO,that goes pop and needs a tight restriction to operate semi auto,or the better L31 A1,belgian which seems a good all-rounder.West Mercia police at one time stipulated that for a rifle for blank only use,had to be pinned,but later recinded due to corrosion issues because of being unable to clean the barrel/chamber properly.Using corrosive primers rotted the pin,with obvious results  .Best keep it 7.92,worth more,etc,and you could invest in home load gear and do your own
|
||
| admin |
Well done Ropes. As your dad obviously know what he's on about also so win - win situation.
By the way... I've just this minute been told of a Section 1 K98 for sale £250 complete with resizing press (if you want to resize 7.62x51 blanks to 7.92x47). Let me know if your dad isn't able to get one, doubt it mind 
|
||
| Ropes |
The old man Said he could Prob source a K98 for around £120 for me like. But we will see. Hes off galavanting in the States untill just before detling and theres no bloody way my Application form will have be processed by then. | ||
| admin |
£120 is a very good price, as I'm sure you know. I got mine for £100 a few years ago. | ||
| Ropes |
Got my Interview on the 12th of this month. | ||
| admin |
Nice one. This may sound silly but the interview is not only to check your security but also to see what you are like and how you live.
Make sure everything is tidy and orderly, be professional and answer questions honestly, if you don't know the answer tell him/her so, don't try and bullsh*t it will only show you to be dodgy. If they need info you don't have say you'll get it and do so promptly. Best not to have German battleflags and SS recruitment posters on the walls etc. After all you are just 'Joe Normal' pursuing your charitable, educational, respectful to veterans and legal hobby. Good luck, although you'll not need it.
|
||
| Ropes |
Damn!! I was planning on having my youth jihad banners up aswell 
|
||
| admin |
|
||
| Ropes |
He came round today and didnt seem to Impressed. He said that due to the fact I have only been to one event that it may be turned down. He said he will have to wait untill my referee gets back from holiday on the 28th to speak to him before he can apply for approval in pricipal. So we'll have to see. If it gets turned down ill just have to apply again in 6 months. He did say somthing about getting it on a shotgun license 
|
||
| les hearn |
they shouldnt use that as an excuse to refuse you the license
but be patient if so then wait ........... |
||
| admin |
Les is right.
This is another example of them being arsey for the sake of it. Don't get shirty with them or you'll have no chance, once you've got your FAC that is a different matter.... If they make the suggestion about getting a shotgun ticket again use these points. a) a shotgun is just as lethal in the wrong hands as a FAC therefore the suggestion is invalid. b) there will be a historical inaccuracy. If I were you I'd just say 'thanks', smile and see what happens. At the worst get some more events under your belt and apply later. Strange as it sounds the season only has a few events left in it! |
||
| Ropes |
Yea I hear what your saying. He seemed a bit odd. Like he was trying to catch me out and prove I wasnt a reenactor. But yea Im gunna be going to shows anyway so I might just apply again in 6 months if its turned down. I dont know what he meant when he said about getting the k98 converted so it could be put on a shotgun ticket. Something about having the barrel length increased or something?????? |
||
| andyf |
That right you lengthen the barrel and restrict how many round go in the mag. | ||
| Ropes |
Sounds too mutch like hard work to me. |
||
| Uncle Fester |
|
||
| admin |
The mad thing is, get this....
IT IS ILLEGAL TO LENGTHEN THE BARREL TO MAKE IT UP TO 24in. The weapon, as far as the law is concerned, remains at the original designated barrel length i.e. 23.25in which as we know is under the minimum requirement for a shotgun of 24in. Now having said that there are many K98s (and others) on shotgun ticket with barrel extensions already out there. This is one of those grey areas and depends on the police authority you happen to be under at the time. Many years ago I purchased a Mauser that was at some stage rebarrelled to 7.62x51 then at a subsequent stage smooth bored and had its barrel extended to 24in and mag restricted to 2 rounds to get it on shotgun ticket. All was good untill I put it on my ticket and an eagle-eyed officer saw "7.62 Shotgun". This did not fall within the normal shotgun calibres (.410 12g, 20g, 26g etc) so questions were asked, the gun was inspected and deemed a section 1 due to the barrel extension. I was blameless due to purchasing it in good faith from the dealer and the gun was returned to said dealer. Some thing to consider is if that gun had been bored to .410 not 7.62 they would not have batted an eyelid. That is legality of barrel extensions is something to mention if he brings it up again. |
||
| Ropes |
If He brings it up again im gunna tell him that im not interested and id rather wait 6 months and re submit my Application. Idd rather wait than have all this done to the weapon and it be restricted.
On another note. Isit me or has this place been quite for a good few days? Where is everyone? |
||
| admin |
Holiday?
|
||
| Ropes |
Haha it would seem that way. Jeez even my mother is going away on holiday tonight. I guess i will have to wait till next year for mine 
|
||
| jonboy |
is that going to be Russia 
|
||
| Ropes |
[/quote]is that going to be Russia [/quote]
Haha yes if all goes to plan. Next year will be Russia with you guys then Snowboarding in france in febuary and a trip to auschwitz in march.  . Looks like im gunna be broke most of 09
|
||
| Ropes |
Well I have been turned down. they said it was because I hadnt been with the group long enough. My liason officer said try again in 12 months. | ||
| barry |
Ropes just chill out and go DISSSCOOO
|
||
| admin |
I think 12 months is unreasonable TBH | ||